You know...

[matt_doyle]

...I'm just tired of fundamentalist bullshit willfully misinterpreting my religion. So I'm just going to say it.

If you oppose welfare, if you oppose public healthcare?

You are neglecting your Christian duty to care for the poor. As someone noted in another journal:

Matthew 25:35-45-
'For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,

I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?

When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,

I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'


The next time some Christian-values touting Republican tells you they don't support public healthcare, remind them of this.

Comments

[carlanime.livejournal.com]

♥ ♥ ♥

[matt_doyle]

♥

[txanne.livejournal.com]

The problem is, they think "The poor you will always have with you" was instructions.

[matt_doyle]

Hah!


...I laugh, but as soon as I stop laughing I want to beat my head against the wall.

[lilyayl.livejournal.com]

This assumes that public healthcare is the best way to carry out Jesus' teachings. The people I've spoken with see Obama's plan, however, as a way to ensure coverage, but deny treatment, while eventually increasing taxes and making life harder for everyone. If you do remind someone of these verses, I fear you will only succeed in shifting the conversation from whether or not public healthcare is viable to whether or not Jesus would support it. You'll just have created new ground upon which to carry out the same old arguments.

I understand the frustration, though. I hate when people hear 'Christian' and immediately assume the worst, despite that the Bible teaches us to be caretakers, not users, of nature, loving to our neighbors, no matter who they are, and so forth.

[matt_doyle]

That's true, I suppose. I've just heard so much hypocrisy about how they (fundie neocons) don't want to "carry" other people, when that's... exactly what they're called upon to do.

[lilyayl.livejournal.com]

Understood and agreed. It feels to me like a clash between values and the Bible. The value of a strong work ethic that is proven in one's personal success (ignoring chance of accidents, bad luck, other people, etc. since those are either trials or evidence of unworthiness or something) vs. scripture. Etc.

[feuervogel]

It's good old-fashioned Calvinism at work. (See point 9.)

[matt_doyle]

Well, yes, but since they claim their values go back to scripture...

I get intensely aggravated when, in a religious discussion, a conservative will rely solely on Moses and Paul. They were great men and great teachers, but where they lean one direction and Jesus another...

[nicocoer.livejournal.com]

oh, I have to share this. See, they don't like it when I, as a non-Christian, point it out. -.-

[lilyayl.livejournal.com]

Of course they don't. After rejecting the Bible, you now trying to use it as a tool against them. To use an inadequate analogy, it is like backseat driving from another car entirely.

I still think it better to counter the arguments they present, rather than presume some other attitude or underlying hypocrisy or belief. Then, when discussing hypocrisy or the problem of being in and not of the world, bringing this contradiction up. Arguments made then and there would less of a personal attack and more a discussion through which the actual current events and scripture could be analyzed. People might even change their minds.

[feuervogel]

The problem with *that* is that the "arguments" a lot of the right-wing people are presenting are so divorced from logic and reality that it's impossible to counter them rationally.

[lilyayl.livejournal.com]

So reverse the argument. Explain your side and fend off their attacks. Or something. I don't know.

And always, always be certain that the apparent lack of logic and reality is not really a misunderstanding between the two sides, a difference in definitions, or misinformation.

I don't know how you'd counter something like 'Obama is the bisexual antichrist-like figure who is embarrassing our nation and will lead us into a time of great Famine' (an actual stance I'v heard recently), but that isn't what most people are arguing.

[matt_doyle]

I don't know. The people who show up to meetings with Hitler mustaches markered onto Obama posters and talk about 'Nazi policy' seem pretty past reason, as do those who carry assault rifles outside meetings, as do those who yell "Heil Hitler!" at a Jewish man talking about health care...

There are a lot of irrational people making bad faith arguments. You can't counter a bad faith argument.

[lilyayl.livejournal.com]

All right, you've a point there. You really can't say or do anything, except keep from lumping everyone who disagrees into that same camp.

[matt_doyle]

That's true.

This post is aimed at people who are arguing in good faith, but from a 'no handouts, no coddling the poor' position.

[lilyayl.livejournal.com]

All right.

On a semi-related note-- the pastor this past Sunday at a church I'm considering defined the 'principalities'/etc in Ephesians as anything that makes people feel alone, unwanted, and vulnerable to temptation, sin, etc. Poverty and lack of healthcare were issues he brought up as darkness for Christians to fight. It was an interesting sermon.

[matt_doyle]

It sounds like it!

I've occasionally considered going to seminary, but honestly I can't think of any church or congregation who would really be down with my rabble-rousing, XD. And though I think I'd enjoy it, I don't really feel called, and that's one vocation I wouldn't pick up without feeling directly that I had a calling for it.

I've often considered trying to get a position as a sermon-writer, though.

[nicocoer.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I point out it's a tool they use against themselves. I was raised Christian and It took years and an absurd number of hours for someone my age to the time to study it and eventually be fed up with that hypocrisy. Add in that I simply didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus and, though I may believe in God, I'm simply not Christian and won't be- and trust me, I tried hard for most of my childhood/teen years.

Interestingly, I don't reject the bible, I just reject that it has a factual basis, that it is infallible, and that Jesus was anything but a great teacher. (My issues w/new testament stem from what followers, rather than Jesus himself, said.) I think it can be a great tool in helping people pursue a faith-life and on living a good life, so long as the whole fact that regardless of divine inspiration OR lack thereof, it was recorded by man with man's bias. (Oh, man, this is getting silly.)

My problem: Here, you don't have an option on bringing the bible into it. Unlike some folks who are blessed enough to live in areas that are still talking about non-biblical, my area has already moved into the "JESUS WOULDN'T WANT THIS." phase of irrationality. I wouldn't bring it up at all if it wasn't for the fact that it is already where the discussion is. Avoiding that when brought up promptly gets you hit over the head repeatedly with the "SECULARIST PIG!/LAWS OF GOD ARE GREATER THAN THE LAWS OF MEN!/(refrain) JESUS DOESN'T WANT THAT" stick.

Then the non-christian agrees to play on their field that they have been invited onto only to hear the "Well, OBVIOUSLY you don't understand it since you aren't a Christian!" bull. It gets worse when you tell them that actually, you were once one but left because of the hypocrisy, as obviously you must just be too stupid/disabled to understand God's word. *HEAD, MEET MY FRIEND DESK*

(Okay, I have a bit of a bias as an interfaith lay-minister who has to be rainbows and fluffy kittens irl about Christian theology or else risk lynching. er. Not literal lynching, metaphorical.)

[lilyayl.livejournal.com]

Fair enough.

And ouch. Yeah, I can see how if the arguments are already being made that way, you don't really have a choice in bringing it up.

I'm glad I've not faced that yet.

a tangent.

[matt_doyle]

I'm always entertained when someone, after discussing politics or something with me, asks if I'm a Christian, and I say yes, and they do a doubletake and say "...Really?"

It just cracks me up, and I've gotten it as much from liberals (who expect Christians to be close-minded bigots) as from conservatives (who expect liberals to be atheists).

But yes, share away!

Re: a tangent.

[nicocoer.livejournal.com]

lol, Christians like you give me faith in the goodness of mankind and reaffirm my belief that it's not the bible that's the problem with some people. (I've met the Non-Christians with a bias against ALL Christians, even the reasonable/awesome sauce ones.)

OT, but there's this song I like I was wondering if you've heard. . . lemme see if I can find it. . . Oh, I found a video of a show I was actually at!

Re: a tangent.

[matt_doyle]

Cool!

Re: a tangent.

[nicocoer.livejournal.com]

or better quality audio + lyrics on his site.

http://www.bradyoder.com/songs/wwjd

Re: a tangent.

[matt_doyle]

I really like the song.

Re: a tangent.

[lilyayl.livejournal.com]

Brad Yoder!! I love the lyrics.

Re: a tangent.

[nicocoer.livejournal.com]

Brad Yoder is seriously awesome sauce- as a performer and as a regular dude. He played a couple shows at the coffee shop I lived under while I was there. I might have spent money I didn't have on his music. *whistles*

There are some clips on youtube of him playing the Pittsburgh Pride fest, too.

[lunarennui.livejournal.com]

true fucking that. er, apologies for the expletive.

[ap-aelfwine.livejournal.com]

Word. To the power of word.